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  • oldefoxx

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    Like everybody else, I've been hindered by the upsurge in buy-them-while-you-still-can interest in guns and ammo.

    The hardest hit sector has been in plinking/target ammo centered around the .22. This area really appeals to people because usually, the ammo is very cheap in comparison to other types. That is because the cartridges are tiny with respect to all those types. Many people who have spent large sums of money on higher caliber guns don't want to waste more money in target or plinking (shoot at any thing laying about) where you are wasting expensive ammo.

    Raises the point of why buy expensive guns when it is too costly to just have fun with them? But I don't want to debate that point. To each his own.

    I bought a Smith and Wesson 22A for protection. Yes I know, awfully small caliber for that purpose. But if I got broken in on by some teenagers, I don't necessarily want to kill or permanently maim them, just drive them off or hold them captive until the law shows up. A bigger caliber gun might make me hesitate to shoot. This small a round, I may decide to shoot more than once.

    See, I got broke in on awhile back, and I am largely incapacitated as I need a walker to get around. I can't go hand to hand with anybody, and was just lucky that the people that broke in fled when they realized someone was home. I asked myself what should I have been able to do, besides call 911, and the idea of getting a pistol seemed best. So I did. Now I just need to get some suitable ammo, and either CCI mini-max or one of the Federals would be best from my research.

    I miss-ordered a type of ammo that by its grouping with 22 LR ammo seemed to be a valid alternative. That was when I ordered .22 Maxi-Mag ammo. When I got it, I found that the shells are several times too big for the 22A that I have. Our of curiosity, I researched what guns take .22 Maxi-Mags. I found that a number of revolvers use it, and that you can have two interchangeable cylinders for those revolvers, one sized for Magnum rounds and the other for .22s. By switching cylinders, you can use the same gun for target practice or plinking, then trade out again for firing the bigger cartride. One site even rated .22 Magnum as being more inpactive than a .32,

    Then I looked to see if I could find any semi-auto pistols that take these rounds. I found two mentioned, a P-30 and a Kel-Tek PMR-30. I read up on the PMR-30, and people really like it. But then I checked out the asking price for one, and they were more than twice the price of a 22A, so out of my league.

    Why didn't I consider a revolver? Personal preference. I played cowboys as a boy so know what a revolver handles like, and learned semi-autos in the Marines, even teaching on the pistol range at Parris Island the last year I served. I just did not want to go with a .45, so got something smaller in terms of caliber.

    Several things left to deal with then.
    A cleaning/lubricating solution for the 22A. Searches led me to Gunzilla, and if you have to deal with lead/copper/plastic build-up, get Copperzilla as well. Gunzilla is a CLP, which stands for Cleaner/Lubricant/Preservative.
    Hoppes is another choice, and my stepson (who would know) recommends 3-in-1 oil and a light grease for lubrication.

    An attachable dot laser sight. Green is better if you plan to shoot outdoors or under bright lights, and goes a farther distance then red, but Red Dot lasers tend to be cheaper and do well enough indoors. The idea of putting a dot on somebody, say on their face so that they see that they are covered, just might intimidate them enough so that you do not have to shoot. Green can be better in this respect as well, because a green dot laser leaves a visible trail to the object, and the red dot laser does not. That would make it even more apparent where you are aiming.

    With pistols, which are all unique in design, you have generally three mounting points for a laser sight. (1) on top of the barrel (and many people put on lasers that include a scope or a magnifier for better long range visibility), in which case you need a pistol that has a mounting rail on top. (2) Before the trigger guard and under the barrel, and for this you need a sight designed to work with that particular model of handgun. (3) a laser sight that lays on the right side of the receiver (the part of the gun that includes the handgrip and the trigger housing) and is part of a new set of handgrips.

    Now here is something to know about laser sights: Aside from whether they or red, green, both, or include amber, and whether they have a magnifying arrangement or not, they have to be adjusted to sight in close to where the bullets should land when fired from a given distance and with respect to windage. This means they are adjustable, usually with an allen wrench that comes with them. They are also battery powered, using three small; batteries like you have in a wristwatch. These batteries need to be replaced when used up, and you get no spares with them. The batteries also have to be installed in a certain direction, and if you get this wrong, you get no light. And you need a simple button method for turning the light on and off, or a pressure pad that squeezing in your hand will turn on, and one small laser sight that I checked out requres you to turn the battery cap to a specific position with a small coin or screwdriver to turn it off or on. That proved to be a very poor design, so I sent it back for a refund.

    Laser sights attach to the pistol using one of two rail systems usually. Rail systems are just two groves, one on each side of the gun, on which the sight is clamped. Where you position it along the rail is your choice. The Weaver rails are set 20 mm apart. The Picatinny rails are set 21 mm apart. Optic devices intended for Picatinny rails can be mounted on Weaver ralis by a little over tightening, but devices meant for Weaver rails probably won't mount well on Picatinny rails because of the added width involved. However, you won't really know until you try.

    This could be a great time to decide on what your next gun purchase would be. Why? Not because prices in general are higher No, it is because of the ammo shortages that is extensive but only involves a handful of cartridge types. Look at what ammo is still available, then find a suitable firearm that uses that ammo. For instance, my grandson decided to buy a pistol, then asked me to find the ammo for it. It took me less than 20 minutes to find matching ammo online for him and order him four boxes. He got them a week later. I've been trying to buy suitable .22 LR ammo now for over four months, and you cannot even back order it at this point.

    People who are snapping up plinging/target ammo don't really need it. They often have other guns that they use for hunting and stuff. But if the stuff is in short supply, then they want to make sure they get theirs first. Then they come on line to brag about it. If they really want to protect their 2nd Amendment rights, they should be involved in writing their Congressmen and signing petitions to keep those rights, not robbing the rest of us our change to get our fair share.
     
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    Welldoya

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    You make some valid points but honestly, if you pull out a gun you better be ready to use it. Hoping it intimidates somebody will get you killed.
     

    FrankT

    6.8 SPCII Hog Slayer
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    Like everybody else, I've been hindered by the upsurge in buy-them-while-you-still-can interest in guns and ammo.

    I bought a Smith and Wesson 22A for protection. Yes I know, awfully small caliber for that purpose. But if I got broken in on by some teenagers, I don't necessarily want to kill or permanently maim them, just drive them off or hold them captive until the law shows up. A bigger caliber gun might make me hesitate to shoot. This small a round, I may decide to shoot more than once.

    Never have a gun you are not ready to pull the trigger on to Kill with: A 22 is virtually worthless for self defense as far as I am concerned.
    Dead men cannot testify or sue you, kill them dead, dead men tell no tales! Just my opinion!

    I use Frog Lube and think it is the best lube cleaner/solvent.
     

    oldefoxx

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    Most likely the individuals that broke in were teenagers, and my guess is two, one that raided the jewelry box in the guest bedroom and went through the drawers in there, and one that sat in my wife's recliner and tried to play with my laptop (has Ubuntu installed on it, not Windows per se). The panic departure was reflected in them leaving the laptop behind in my wife's recliner. The law showed up about 15 minutes after i called 911, which shows that isn't a good first response.

    I'm not afraid to shoot someone if provoked enough, but I hope to avoid killing someone without enough cause. Grown kids are a likely menace going forward, as there is no longer any sure path to making ends meet. I've read that about 40% of blacks can't get jobs, and tell me what else are they likely to turn to besides taking from others? A gun in hand is not a guarantee that you will be spared, but how are they to judge what kind of gun you have in hand, unless they are a student of handguns in general. Even the small muzzle opening is not a clear clue, as it could even be a .22 Magnum and show the same bore size. I even expect things to get worse as the economy and dollar falter and fail, and people riot because they can't get food or other necessities. At some stages you may see mobs breaking into neighborhood homes to grab what they can. That's when you need more gun power.

    If I have to shoot someone in the face, neck, or chest, I can do that. Even .22s can kill or maim if they strike there. Or I could shoot in the belly, genitals, upper legs, or knees. With ten rounds per magazine and quick pulls on the trigger, I can expect to do real damage. You may not know this, but more people have been shot with .22s here in America than any other caliber. Often it is a question of who gets off the first shot, and there are no guarantees of that, no matter what caliber gun you use.

    I once returned to the tower where our message center was, and on coming up the ladder, was hailed from behind and turned around to look right into the muzzle of a loaded 45 colt thatx a looney in the group was branishing in my face. Scared me to death, and that muzzle looked huge in my eyes. He finally lowered it after having his joke on me, and I calmed down, but either I got even, got back at him by turning him in, or acted like I forgot the whole thing and let it go. I could not bring myself to shoot him, which would be the only way to convince him that I was serious, and if I turned him in, I knew the Communications Officer would have fits at my misunderstanding a simple joke, so I let it pass. I never forgot the man's name though, which was John Paul Biers III. He took to heavy drinking on his watch, and the Communications Officer ignored it because he just wanted to look good to the rest of the command, and he made sure the rest of us ignored it as well.

    It isn't necessarily the size of the bullet that counts on making impressions, but the size of the gun that gets across. Once you shoot, it's what and where you hit that counts most. I learned with a 45 that even with a two-hand grip, the recoil is going to throw the muzzle off target, and you have to get back into position to shoot again. With a smaller caliber gun, not as much recoil, less kickback, and you can get off additional shots faster. you play it your way, I will do it mine.
     

    FrankT

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    Whatever, i can see you have your mind made up, hope it does not get you hurt...good luck, I am outta here!
     

    oldefoxx

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    You make some valid points but honestly, if you pull out a gun you better be ready to use it. Hoping it intimidates somebody will get you killed.

    If I pull the gun out, I will use it if necessary. I may even know if I mean to pull the trigger before I go for it. If matters go as they did with the last break-in, I will be prewarned by repeated rings of the doorbell and taps on the door. Since I did not respond to those, they thought it was safe to break in, and did so. Next time I will take that as a signal and call 911 and report the circumstances to them, and have them respond as a precaution. But many break-ins come with no warning, in which case you can't prepare in advance. My only thought in that case is to act peaceful and wait for the right moment to react. I may not get that moment, but if they have the advantage, you cannot be so foolish as to force their hand and have them kill you outright. Of course they may do that anyway. Hey, nothing is perfect.
     

    Scrooge

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    Never have a gun you are not ready to pull the trigger on to Kill with: A 22 is virtually worthless for self defense as far as I am concerned.
    Dead men cannot testify or sue you, kill them dead, dead men tell no tales! Just my opinion!

    I use Frog Lube and think it is the best lube cleaner/solvent.

    +10 on Frog Lube! Barricade is good stuff also...





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    oldefoxx

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    Whatever, i can see you have your mind made up, hope it does not get you hurt...good luck, I am outta here!

    I lived through the Vietnam and Watts Riots eras, and was stationed in Hawaii where I spent a month in the Tripler Army Hospital. I know about Vets coming back with wounds, but I myself have never been in combat. When you are fighting an enemy that is your known enemy, you have little choice in the matter. It is often kill or be killed. We haven't reached that point yet with home invasions, unless somehow gangs or drugs are involved. I have to play off the differences as long as i can perceive them as being distinct and different.
     

    Scrooge

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    If I pull the gun out, I will use it if necessary. I may even know if I mean to pull the trigger before I go for it. If matters go as they did with the last break-in, I will be prewarned by repeated rings of the doorbell and taps on the door. Since I did not respond to those, they thought it was safe to break in, and did so. Next time I will take that as a signal and call 911 and report the circumstances to them, and have them respond as a precaution. But many break-ins come with no warning, in which case you can't prepare in advance. My only thought in that case is to act peaceful and wait for the right moment to react. I may not get that moment, but if they have the advantage, you cannot be so foolish as to force their hand and have them kill you outright. Of course they may do that anyway. Hey, nothing is perfect.

    Just my 2cents oldefox - be ready, assume the worst; no one breaks in to do you any favors. Protect yourself and don't be a victim. Sadly, older folks and the disabled make easy targets in a thugs twisted mind. Keep your weapon handy and use it - hesitating will get you killed. Wish things were different but this is the evil reality that we live with. May God bless you and keep you safe, sir!
     

    oldefoxx

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    Just my 2cents oldefox - be ready, assume the worst; no one breaks in to do you any favors. Protect yourself and don't be a victim. Sadly, older folks and the disabled make easy targets in a thugs twisted mind. Keep your weapon handy and use it - hesitating will get you killed. Wish things were different but this is the evil reality that we live with. May God bless you and keep you safe, sir!

    I am certainly one for presuming the worse. I am among a group of people from which Doomsday Preppers and Survivalists are drawn. But I am neither of those for the simple reason that I don't believe any one individual's efforts to get past it all will have any certainty of succeeding. In fact, by trying to prepare for the future course of things, you just make yourself a likely target for others to try and take advantage of. Knowing that the dollar is on its way out, my move was to use what I had and buy silver coins which are 90% pure silver. These date back before 1965, But instead of increasing in value, those coins are now worth about $1.60 less apiece than when I bought them. How to explain that? Somple: A failing dollar makes stocks, bonds, and other investments seem to be worth more, so they go up. People leave gold & silver behind as they move towards places that seem to promise them more. When they finally realize the truth of it, that the stated dollar values are worth very little, there will be a panic rush back to anything that has real value in its own right, like gold, silver, platinum, and so on. You want somebody to read that knows this stuff, look into Porter Stansberry or Stansberry & Associates. He and they are full of useful info and tips on the best way to invest what you still have, or keep from paying flagrant taxes on what you earn or invest.
     

    Welldoya

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    Maybe I am over-simplifying things but I never understood why people think that gold and silver will save them in a SHTF situation. It's only worth a lot because it's generally understood that it's worth a lot. People accept that it is.
    Actually, you can't do a whole lot with gold and silver as far as practical applications. What happens if people stop accepting that it's worth a lot ?
    If it really hits the fan, I would think lead would be worth more than either of them.
     

    FrankT

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    AND in a collapse it will not be worth its weight in paper, food, ammo, fuel, if you can defend it will be a better currency. Of course if you are shooting to wound or waving your gun not intending to use it, or just hoping for the best, you will not last long enough to worry about it anyway!! LOL
     

    ilintner

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    Gold and silver have been used for trading and deemed valuable for many many centuries, why would the collapse of our society change that, it hasn't changed with the collapse of many societies before ours. Just posing the question, I am interested in what you guys think on it.
     

    FrankT

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    I am thinking you will not be able to hold it or be killed trying, the Government will take it all or what if I need the fuel you have because the gold you are offering will not burn in my trucks. Over history precious metals have been forbidden by the masses to use. Sure there will be a black market but real necessities will be need far more. Most people will not survive a year into a total collapse, the gangs and brutal people will take whatever you have.
     

    Ken232

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    If I have to pull my gun im NOT going to intimdate or wound..been with the EMS services as a volunteer firefighter/emergency medical responder,most of which was in Jacksonville,Fla, and saw the aftereffects of that. If I HAVE to draw my weapon or grab it out of the bedside safe its going to be to protect my life or someone elses. Simply put just send a toetag and a body bag thats all that will be needed. I NEVER hope I have to use my firearms in self defense but if I do they won't be bothering anyone else. EVER. the night those teens broke in could have had a different ending you were lucky.
     

    CCHGN

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    Well, I'm on a farm and I have 1911 in .45 and an AR and a M1A and several SG, but I have .22 conversions for the 1911 and the AR and I use them almost exclusively. I know one thing for a fact: NOBODY WANTS TO GET SHOT, WITH ANYTHING. I guarantee that .22HP will ruin anyone's day. As said, several rounds up around the head will take care of 99% of anything. I have yet to come across anything that didn't want to get shot. I regularly drop 150lb goats with a single shot to the back of the head. I've seen a .22 drop a 900lb bull the same way. I know they work.

    After saying all that, it depends......if it's at night and I'm surprised from my sleep, etc, I'll grab the SG; if I have time during the day and know what it is, I'll grab a .22,,,,if it's a wild hog or bear, I'll grab the M1A, but I have NO problem using .22, most of the time.

    AFA scenarios, well, nobody knows how any encounter will pan out. They're all different. OP said that invaders fled when they realized he was home, so that's all it took then. We've seen many cases where just the sight of a gun DID stop the confrontation, so don't tell me that it doesn't work. We just don't know,,,sure, we could be confronted with a hardened felon on PCP, that keeps coming after several .45 rnds, but that's very very rare( and then it becomes about how good your HTH and conditioning is). We've seen many cases where folks shoot and empty their gun and don't hit the BG once, because of stress, so it really didn't matter what caliber or how many rnds it was. So imo, nobody has the secret to armed confrontation success.
     

    ilintner

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    I am thinking you will not be able to hold it or be killed trying, the Government will take it all or what if I need the fuel you have because the gold you are offering will not burn in my trucks. Over history precious metals have been forbidden by the masses to use. Sure there will be a black market but real necessities will be need far more. Most people will not survive a year into a total collapse, the gangs and brutal people will take whatever you have.

    Makes sense, but as far as forbidding the masses from using precious metals, don't coins count as such? Or at least they were precious metals pre-'64 right? I think that gold, guns, or fuel, gang's would be a problem, but I guess i'd rather sling lead at them out of a rifle than try to throw silver bars at them :D
     

    oldefoxx

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    Maybe I am over-simplifying things but I never understood why people think that gold and silver will save them in a SHTF situation. It's only worth a lot because it's generally understood that it's worth a lot. People accept that it is.oney l
    Actually, you can't do a whole lot with gold and silver as far as practical applications. What happens if people stop accepting that it's worth a lot ?
    If it really hits the fan, I would think lead would be worth more than either of them.

    Gold and silver, like other metals, have intrinsic value. which paper money lacks. Ever hear the expression "not worth the paper it is printed on"? It is a common expression from the past to explain what happens when a paper-backed currency collapses. They always do, as they always have. If you had a Continental Paper Dollar, it has no value in its own right except as a collector's item. When the dollar collapses, it won't be even worth that, as there are trillions in circulation that will all have to be destroyed to make way for what comes next.

    Metals cannot be destroyed, but only made over into something new. Metals have in many cases been replaced by plastics or composites, but these do not last and often cannot be readily made over into something new. Aluminum was once extremely costly because producing it was so demanding on electical power, but now is common place and far from expensive. Why? Because once available in sufficient quantity, reclaiming it and recycling it brings the cost way down.
    ,
    You describe a type of barter system where you mention food and ammo as a medium of exchange. But once used up, food is a pile of manure and ammo is an empty shell casing. No lasting value there, and little to build on. Gold and Silver? Another story. They get reused as mediums of exchange or in the making of something new, like art, jewelry, electronic devices, and many things like expensive dinnerware. It isn't so much what you would use it for as it is what the person on the end of the exchange might use it for. And it they just save it, they know that others will come to appreciate its use more when they can't get it.

    Yes, bartering is likely after the currency collapses, but depends upon the the preceived value in objects and finding to find a balance between what to offer up in exchange for what. For a society to attempt to recover and give its members a real chance, you have to create a new currency to move move back to the earn and spend, buy and sell phase of inter-cooperation needed to meld a society together. But guess what? Gold and silver are self starters in this area, especially if already minted into known, trusted coins. But most USA coins are made of cheaper composite metals now, so you have to go back before 1965 to get silver coins of 90% silver, and the "silver" coins from 1965 to 1970 are only 40% silver.

    The current ratio between silver and gold is about 551. This is a man contrived false ratio, as the historic norm is more like 15:1, meaning silver is way undervalued. And the commerical and industrial needs for silver are now hard pressed to find enough silver to meet their needs. This is going to force silver higher once the press for reusing what is out there becomes strong enough. Incidently, while coins may contain 90% silver, sterling silver is defined as being 92.5% silver.
     

    oldefoxx

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    Makes sense, but as far as forbidding the masses from using precious metals, don't coins count as such? Or at least they were precious metals pre-'64 right? I think that gold, guns, or fuel, gang's would be a problem, but I guess i'd rather sling lead at them out of a rifle than try to throw silver bars at them :D

    Coins are now made of junk metal, like zinc, nickel, with a trace of copper and other metals mixed in or used as cladding. People will wake up one day and realize that the only thing they have to spend is not the paper money in their wallets or purses,not the credit or debit cards, not the junk change in their jars, but the few coins that are mixed in there that are either mostly silver, copper, or possibly nickel. We will all quickly learn not to accept the rest unless we have a real, alternate need for it.

    Why use lead or copper in bullets? Lead because it is dense, has a low melting temperature, and molds to the rifling in our barrels. Copper because it cuts down on lead's abrasive effect as it is fired through the barrel. Can you melt down zinc pennies and use that instead? How about just taking coins as they are and packing them as best they fit into shotgun shells and firing them that way? I saw a Demolition Ranch video on YouTube where they fired a sparkplug, a stack of washers, a bunch of toothpicks, a bunch of pins, and other objects through an old shotgun and into melons or pumpkins to see how much damage they did. Pretty informative.

    Here is the thing to consider: You go into survival mode where it is you against all comers, where does it stop? We see outlaws in our society all the time, and what happens at some point is that at some point the might of society turns against them and either crushes them or wipes them out. If you vacate your place in the society around you, whatever its problems or breakdowns, how are you going to come back later? You excluded yourself, remember? Why should they accept you? I read a SiFi book one time where the idea that the best survivalist move was simply to integrate yourself into those around you and do nothing to single yourself out for attention,
     
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