Did Open Carry backfire on Texas gun owners?

[Brandon_SPC]

Anything to divide us, look at all the bolt guys who think an AR is not for hunting

Yep I have came to point that if you want that firearm then get it and use it. If you want to use an AR for hunting then go ahead, if you want a bolt gun for home defense then by all means go ahead. If one person wants a hi-point over a Smith&Wesson then go ahead. Arguing over what is better is dumb in my opinion. Each person will have their own opinion and some learn the hard way. I will state what I personally think is better for the application but not get in arguments any more. If you want to conceal carry over open then do and if you want to open carry over conceal then do it. But by all means don't infringe on another individual rights just because one person feels this or that.

 

[bac3996]

If I save a life in the process of carrying in a place where it is “posted” well them I morally did what was needed. I would rather deal with the legal problems then watch someone die or be harmed at the hands of a criminal. If you are potential worried about legal problems, court fees, etc then I highly recommend do not defend yourself in a situation. You carrying, pretty much is accepting any legal matter that will be thrown at you if god forbid you have to defend yourself.

Speaking from 1st hand knowledge the shooting is nothing compared to what the court system will put you thru.

You say if you can't handle the repercussions after you use a firearm to defend yourself. Well if you carry and fail to use it your just a statistic on a concrete slab .

Very few think of the ramifications after a shooting until it happens.

But in truth all the range time you spent preparing isn't worth squat. Nothing will prepare you for what you will go thru during the next 12 months.

And to add to everything else now because I use my firearm in an establishment that for years I carried concealed and then all of a sudden open carry is allowed and the place bans firearms, It wouldn't sit well with me.

All this bullshit leads to three things . Attorneys making big money, Court systems getting bound up more.

And lastly the big one.
State & Federal governments playing the system.

They allow open carry knowing full well that public establishments will bow down to antis and they will ban firearms on their property.

So the government kept their hands clean and at the same time put more limits on gun owners.

Brandon_SPC you do make some good points, But if we all saw things the way you interpret them we'd have few issues.

Unfortunate there are many that don't . And as Frank stated sadly all firearm enthusiasts are not on the same page. If we were and could get our act together we'd be one of the strongest groups in this country.

But unfortunately many use the approach if it doesn't affect me I'm staying out of it.

I'd truly like to see an open carry bill pass not that I'd exercise that benefit to often.
But along with that bill there needs to be restrictions to stop firearms being banned where formally nothing was said before.
But we all know the government is banking on properties banning firearms and limiting carry without them getting involved.

As for a National permit you state the 2nd amendment should allow that. I wish that was the case and hope some time it is.

Brandon_SPC I hope you continue you passion about firearm legislation as you seem some what knowledgeable. But never forget reality is the guide, book smarts can be taught and one sentence can mean many different things to an array of people. But having to go thru 1st hand something you will see both sides.

I truly hope you and everyone else on site never needs to use their firearm for protection. Because if it happens everything you believed and read and were taught goes out the door. You go from victim to aggressor the second you pull that trigger.

Please those who read this understand these are just my opinions from what I have gone thru. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions and many here make some very good points.

 

[fl57caveman]

You still were limited to those places they are just making it known now. Don’t get mad at the other person expressing their 2nd amendment right because you paid a fee. No offence but that is one of the dumbest reasons to be upset. If you are upset because you have to pay a fee and a conceal carrier don't then do what these open carriers did and get off our butts and petition just like they did instead of being butthurt. You should be upset at the politician’s that pass laws like this that require us to pay a fee….. It is OUR fault that it has become like this.


If I save a life in the process of carrying in a place where it is “posted” well them I morally did what was needed. I would rather deal with the legal problems then watch someone die or be harmed at the hands of a criminal. If you are potential worried about legal problems, court fees, etc then I highly recommend do not defend yourself in a situation. You carrying, pretty much is accepting any legal matter that will be thrown at you if god forbid you have to defend yourself.


Why do we need a national permit? The 2nd amendment is our permit. Why do we need a permit to recognize something that is a law?
Still how does it limit where you carry? No one knows you carry in the real world….. I will bet the tom thumb you fill up at there is a no guns sign posted right in the left or right side door when you go in there. I bet you still carry……

You will still be limited whether you like it or not. This law is going to take a while to rub in just when segregation was made illegal that took how many years to change people mind on the opposite color of another person. And hell there are still people that are still bitter today over that.




This is where our rights get obscured based off feel and where all politically correct comes in. Rights aren’t based off feeling if that is the case we have no more rights. What if the libtard politicians made it to where conceal carry was illegal because they feel for the common safety of the people that carrying is a hazard and they feel the only reason for someone to conceal carry is if you job requires it. That is the same reasoning and still restricting other rights based off feeling. It is a right not something that "I feel should or should not be allowed."



As firearm enthusiasts we do not need the mind as choosing our battles wisely because what happens is we become complacent and do not do a dang thing…. Prime example the last 82 years since the NFA was passed. You aren’t loosing anything it is the business owner to decide whether or not he wants to allow just like they have the ability do deny sale and we have the ability to pick and choose who comes on our property. Everyone has rights and even has 2nd amendment advocates we might get our feelings hurt when we go to a store that doesn’t allow it but the only thing we can do is try and educate people. Instead of living in fear because you are scared that if you pass something for it, it will possibly have repercussions. We need all need to be at a point where every last 2nd amendment advocate stands together. If not we will be the downfall of this right because we argue between people what is right and wrong about this right that is NOT suppose to have any infringements.

except for bars & soccer games, I feel the same, the 2nd amendment covers it very clearly....shall not be infringed...


alcohol makes people stupid, and soccer fans are whacked in the head anyway, so guns would be best left out of those equations...

 

[Brandon_SPC]

Speaking from 1st hand knowledge the shooting is nothing compared to what the court system will put you thru.

You say if you can't handle the repercussions after you use a firearm to defend yourself. Well if you carry and fail to use it your just a statistic on a concrete slab .

Very few think of the ramifications after a shooting until it happens.

But in truth all the range time you spent preparing isn't worth squat. Nothing will prepare you for what you will go thru during the next 12 months.

And to add to everything else now because I use my firearm in an establishment that for years I carried concealed and then all of a sudden open carry is allowed and the place bans firearms, It wouldn't sit well with me.

All this bullshit leads to three things . Attorneys making big money, Court systems getting bound up more.

And lastly the big one.
State & Federal governments playing the system.

They allow open carry knowing full well that public establishments will bow down to antis and they will ban firearms on their property.

So the government kept their hands clean and at the same time put more limits on gun owners.

Brandon_SPC you do make some good points, But if we all saw things the way you interpret them we'd have few issues.

Unfortunate there are many that don't . And as Frank stated sadly all firearm enthusiasts are not on the same page. If we were and could get our act together we'd be one of the strongest groups in this country.

But unfortunately many use the approach if it doesn't affect me I'm staying out of it.

I'd truly like to see an open carry bill pass not that I'd exercise that benefit to often.
But along with that bill there needs to be restrictions to stop firearms being banned where formally nothing was said before.
But we all know the government is banking on properties banning firearms and limiting carry without them getting involved.

As for a National permit you state the 2nd amendment should allow that. I wish that was the case and hope some time it is.

Brandon_SPC I hope you continue you passion about firearm legislation as you seem some what knowledgeable. But never forget reality is the guide, book smarts can be taught and one sentence can mean many different things to an array of people. But having to go thru 1st hand something you will see both sides.

I truly hope you and everyone else on site never needs to use their firearm for protection. Because if it happens everything you believed and read and were taught goes out the door. You go from victim to aggressor the second you pull that trigger.

Please those who read this understand these are just my opinions from what I have gone thru. Everyone is entitled to there own opinions and many here make some very good points.

I know but my question is why do we all argue over this? What is the point to argue over conceal carry vs open carry like this thread. The end cause if we continue to argue over whether we should do this or that when by law we are allowed we just allow our own government to start taking more and more away. I understand both points when it comes to conceal and open carry because I do both and support both 100%. I know it is a very idealist thinking (I'm a realist) we should bound together etc but we will eventually have our 2nd amendment right taken away if we do not stop arguing over this and start supporting every pro gun bill out there, don't think it will be taken away just look back at the Revolutionary War or hitler. If we as the citizens keep doing what we are doing we will wake up one day and not be able to purchase any of this legally. People will say they will fight back but they won't if that was the case we should be fighting years ago..... Sorry for going off on that rant.

But yes reality is a guide and reality is that the 2nd amendment law trumps any other gun law out there and we do nothing. The reality is that we have been told in paper that if our government becomes destructive we are suppose to take back their power. I'm not a person that thinks we should be holding each others hands etc but if we want to continue to have our rights there will always be a fight. Where there is freedom there is always someone willing to take away freedom.....

 

[Steve@JCA]

Sounds like Open Carry is doing exactly what the anti's wanted it to do.

It pushes business instead of legislators to ban firearms. Now because of the open carry bill it now makes it illegal for concealed carry in many establishments.

Seems to me by passing a bill to open carry it did more damage to legal firearm owners then it did good.

Those of you stating that you'd no longer go to establishments that ban firearms are well with in your rights.

In areas like Pensacola banning firearms would suck but there are plenty of other establishments in the area that might ok it.

But what happens to those that frequent small towns and rely on the one Walmart or Winni Dixie. They now loose their legal rights to carry concealed so that a few others can run around carrying open.

I agree Open Carry should be a right but not when it relives the rights of other legal concealed carry permit holders.

You may have the legal right to open carry, But now what good is it?

In the long run who won the battle? Most likely the Anti's won this one as they got corporate America to do what the state & federal governments wouldn't & couldn't.

They limited where you now can legally carry and closed off areas where it was once legal to carry.

I watched a news piece a couple weeks back while in Houston that dealt with Walmart's take on the new law. As expected, they immediately posted the 30.07 signage at all of their super stores that sell alcoholic beverages, since unlicensed customers open carrying on the premises could cause huge insurance & liquor license problems for them. What DID surprise me was the fact that corporate Walmart chose to handle the issue with some common sense. Apparently the liquor licensing laws (not sure if this is just for TX, or pretty much everywhere) are written such that only unlicensed customers carrying a weapon constitute a violation, so corporate basically directed their store management to have an employee approach any customer who is openly carrying a firearm to ask to see that persons CCW.

They interviewed several customers and several employees from different stores around TX for the piece. Most of the employees hated the idea, some were afraid armed customers without CCWs would take out their frustration on them directly, but mostly they just complained about how much extra work it was going to be. Every one of the customers they interviewed said they were kind of freaked out at first & felt like they were being followed around the store & being singled out, but they all also said the employees had been very polite & had been told that Walmart absolutely supports a citizens 2nd amendment rights, but due to the alcohol issue, they had been directed to explain to all customers openly carrying a firearm, that they could only allow CCW permit holders to openly carry a firearm in any Walmart store that sells alcoholic beverages.

Just another of the many reasons that everyone who is eligible should make sure they get their CCW, IMO.

 

[Jeb21]

This situation pits private property owner's rights up against 2nd Amendment Rights. I believe that a property owner should have a say as to what goes on his or her own property. If a private property owner does not allow guns then I will go somewhere else. But, I really don't want the government telling a private property owner that he must allow guns on his property. I want less government interference not more.

 

[Steve@JCA]

Seems to me like whoever introduced and pushed the bill allowing open carry, should now push another one, making it unlawful for a business, open to the general public, to ban open carry and/or concealed carry on their premises.
Or, if someone had some balls, file a civil suit against the businesses banning oc, for discrimination. I'm sure there's plenty of starving atty's that would file it.
As it is now (texas), seems like they're saying "you have the right to bear arms", just do it on your own personal property.

I'm pretty sure the legality of forcing a private business owner to allow anything on their property would prohibit this. There have been several court cases regarding the rights of a private business owner's legal right to "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". I grew up in Montana & until I joined the Navy & went out into the big world, I never even knew there were places where you were not allowed to openly carry a sidearm. Having said that, pretty much every town & city also had ordinances that allowed private businesses to post their establishments. I think there were some stores that did simply post no firearms allowed signage, but the majority I remember had signs requesting that you check your weapon when in their establishments.

 

[JBryan314]

The difference between open carry & concealed carry rights is that I paid fees to be able to carry concealed and now because others feel the urge to open carry I'm being limited to places that before I was allowed to carry into.

And true I could and most likely will carry concealed into a few of the establishments.

But because the establishments are now posted if I were to rely on my firearm in a confrontation I put myself int many legal problems.

For some of you money may not be a problem but for some of us that are on strict finical budgets the added expense of court fees & attorney fees would bury me.

I support anyone's rights be it firearm related or stores having to post due to cooperate pressure or a small local store having to post because of insurance risks.

Open carry maybe a given right but It will do nothing more than to limit where & when you may carry. If things are to change I'd rather see and support a national permit system then open carry.

Other states need to follow suit and pass laws that make it ok if a firearm is seen thru clothing or while one is moving around. That I feel would be the only reason to actually have any sort of open carry.

Open carry is allowed while hunting & fishing already so what is the actual draw to walking around town strapped with firepower.

If your using it as a deterrent to some how gives others a warning that your a tough hardcore , Then you need to see a therapist and real soon.

Open carry has it's place I agree.

I carried in uniform for 17yrs. I got use to it and never thought about it.

But to be honest I felt much more relaxed when my firearm became concealed I could walk into places and not have everyone's eyes on me and be the center of attention.

As firearm enthusiasts we need to chose our battles wisely. By gaining one thing and losing something we already had I fail to see what steps were made forward.

We didn't "lose" anything. We gained definitive knowledge of locations where we weren't welcome to begin with. I'm glad for that.

The people who say "I don't get the draw of OC" and "I don't care about OC" are in the same group as the hunters who don't care about the right to own a semi-automatic rifle. It's no different. Do Arizona carriers have a ton of problems finding businesses to patronize? No. The opponents of OC are constantly using things that don't happen to bolster their arguments.

I don't get why so many people who claim to be pro gun are so afraid of how the left will react. They react the same to everything. They've been pushing against forever. If OC causes some businesses to turn us away, then fuck them. That's part of the fight. We are already made out to be murderous, inbred rednecks. OC isn't going to make that any worse.

If you don't want to OC, then don't do it. But don't blame me when a business puts up a sign. Here's a hint: They never wanted you there before they put that sign up either! They were just too stupid to realize that a lot of people carry!

 

[Fletch]

Open Carry may end up having many "be careful what you wish for" moments for it's adherents who so badly want to display their heater 24/7. Texas is a good example of how in the end it may be a net loss. That's a relatively harmless one though.

The other is tactics. It has been debated ad nauseam but nobody will convince me that carrying openly is more tactically sound. It requires a belief in the gun being a magic talisman that the mere sight of will ward evil away. More likely it will only strike fear into the hearts of soccer moms and college professors not hardened violent criminals who live by the gun every day. Once they see your gun and decide to carry on you just tied your other hand behind your back. Good Luck!

 

[Ross7]

I'm among those who would like to see OC legalized in FL, but would still CC most of the time.

This Texas firearms instructor makes a point about retention holsters that I hadn't considered before.

Yes, technically an open carry draw is faster than a concealed carry draw. If concealed carry was faster, then the fastest competition pistol shooters in the world would be shooting from concealment – but they don’t...

But on the flip side, if you’re openly carrying you should be carrying in a retention holster, and having to deactivate that retention mechanism will cost you time. The more retention mechanisms to deactivate, the slower things get. And believe me, you can fail to deactivate the mechanism and totally foul your draw. So while certainly an open carry draw is faster than a concealed draw, a retention draw is going to be slower than an open draw. Advantage lost.

Even more, I see no reason for me to open carry

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I am from Texas and see things this way. OC gave us the right (by permit) to carry openly in a proper holster (ankle holster isn't proper, LOL). BEFORE OC went into effect, man pro-gun people poopoo'd the whole thing because they didn't like it. More so than the antis, they proclaimed their would be blood in the streets. They took the position if that carry is supposed to be concealed (if you don't do it like I do it, then you are doing it wrong - attitude). They claimed that open carry means "Shoot me first," you know, like all those vests are supposed to do, but you never hear about such ever happening. Many of these same pro-gun people are first to proclaim "shall not be infringed" yet are the first ones to want to infringe this. Now, they are whining because some businesses are not only disallowing open carry, but also disallowing concealed carry and doing so with the proper legal signs.

It probably needs to take 2-4 years, just like when Texas enacted concealed carry. Lots of places put of signs. Then signs disappeared from those places over time as there was no blood in the streets.

I, for one, applaud the new law. I now open carry in my vehicle with some regularity. I conceal most of the rest of the time, but don't worry about being unconcealed if it happen, printing, etc.

As for the state should have passed a law removing a business' right to block carry on their premises, no state in the US has done this.

Are signs going up where there were none before? Yep, and I have a couple of observations about this. First of all, if the business is putting up the sign and you actually did business there previously, aren't you happy that you are no longer supporting anti-gun folks? They may not have posted signs previously, but that didn't mean they were supporters of gun rights. At best, they were ambivalent. Second, those 4% of us in Texas with permits, of which about 80% never carry concealed or otherwise with any regularity, so less than 1%, are actually going to be blocked from carry in said businesses. Third, of all the businesses adding such signs, very few of us are going to be doing business with them anyways, concealed or open. So in the grand scheme, this is all really a non-issue for most of us who carry and only a minor inconvenience for the rest of us at a very few locations.

I had to laugh...a buddy of mine was lamenting how there were to restaurants that he had been meaning to try, supposedly very good food, that had posted proper no concealed carry and no open carry signs. So he "lost" two places to eat that he had never been to before (and likely wasn't going to visit anytime soon anyway, lol).

 

[Viking1204]

It simple terms NO, it did not backfire. It gave Texas gun owners more gun rights instead of taking them away and identified the businesses who were against gun owners and now gun owners have the choice not to frequent those businesses, a win win I think!

 

[JBryan314]

Some people are just too scared to get into a fight for their rights. Too afraid of what some business owner is going to put in his window.

Sorry, but if you're that weak and scared then you have no place in this fight on this side. Go to the other side. I'm tired of timid people pretending to be lions. They're lions alright, until they have to pick somewhere else to buy their clothes or food.