The FBI says 9mm is the Best Pistol Round

[MAXman]

It'd be interesting to see what barrel length and what ammunition was used to get those results.

 

[Hipower]

So let's get this straight. You equip your fighting personnel with a round known not to put an enemy down except with good shot placement under high stress conditions, thereby requiring extra hits on said enemy while the soldier is probably being shot at with who knows what type of rounds the enemy is using. So you make your guy have to use more shots than necessary, thus driving up ammo expense to boot. Consider the ammo RBCD: http://rense.com/general45/priva.htm. A friend shot a water-filled milk jug with a Hydra Shok 9mm and then with a RBCD 9mm and the impact results of the bullets were significantly greater with the RBCD than the Hydra Shok.

 

[JBryan314]

I agree with most of the FBI assessment. I enjoy carrying 9mm and having plenty of ammo. I have nothing against .45ACP and I plan to buy a 1911 next and I'll probably carry that daily. But for now, I am more than happy with a G19 and a 15 round mag.

 

[shootnstarz]

Anything's better than a plead for your life.

RH

 

[fl57caveman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ


new underwood 9mm ammo, pretty good penetration...9mm Xtreme Defender

 

[Sig_Lover]

Well if the government says so it must be true.

Rick

Yea right

Rich

 

[ChrisC]

9mm. More officers/agents can pass the qualification that way. More qualified LEOs, more force on the streets. Same agency that used 10mm because of its effectiveness. then came up with the .40 S&W when qual pass rate was low. now 9mm because we want to treat a gun like a hammer, pick it up when you need it. "If its good nuff for our military, its good nuff for us"-FBI. "If its good enough for FBI, its good nuff for me"- Joe CCW. Then comes the internet commandos that justifies their choice. "Faster double taps" "high cap" "just as good as the .45" "softer recoil"

here is a good video of gunshot wounds from a surgeon's perspective
http://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

the .357 magnum is one of the most effective handgun cartridge because of its penetrating capability. Not because it opens up into a beautiful flower like the "modern 9mm". I do beleive that they had it right with the flat point .40 S&W. It is one effective round.

 

[Fletch]

9mm. More officers/agents can pass the qualification that way. More qualified LEOs, more force on the streets. Same agency that used 10mm because of its effectiveness. then came up with the .40 S&W when qual pass rate was low. now 9mm because we want to treat a gun like a hammer, pick it up when you need it. "If its good nuff for our military, its good nuff for us"-FBI. "If its good enough for FBI, its good nuff for me"- Joe CCW. Then comes the internet commandos that justifies their choice. "Faster double taps" "high cap" "just as good as the .45" "softer recoil"

here is a good video of gunshot wounds from a surgeon's perspective
http://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk

the .357 magnum is one of the most effective handgun cartridge because of its penetrating capability. Not because it opens up into a beautiful flower like the "modern 9mm". I do believe that they had it right with the flat point .40 S&W. It is one effective round.

That was interesting and caused me to ponder a few things. When choosing self-defense ammo I wonder if we don't sometimes needlessly obsess about the liability of over penetration when the main concern at the time will be this MF'er is trying to kill me and if I don't incapacitate him I'm dead. There is almost no verification of fatalities from handgun rounds that went through one individual and maintained enough energy to penetrate to a lethal depth on another human. Seems this is statistically a non-factor in self-defense shootings by police or civilians with handguns. But straight from the horses mouth there is case after case of handgun rounds stopping short of vitals and not getting the job done in one torso much less two.

 

[Brandon_SPC]

So let's get this straight. You equip your fighting personnel with a round known not to put an enemy down except with good shot placement under high stress conditions, thereby requiring extra hits on said enemy while the soldier is probably being shot at with who knows what type of rounds the enemy is using. So you make your guy have to use more shots than necessary, thus driving up ammo expense to boot. Consider the ammo RBCD: http://rense.com/general45/priva.htm. A friend shot a water-filled milk jug with a Hydra Shok 9mm and then with a RBCD 9mm and the impact results of the bullets were significantly greater with the RBCD than the Hydra Shok.

You realize if you get hit in the same spot with either a 9mm, 45, 40, they will all do the samething. If someone gets hit in the lungs with a 9mm 124gr HST and then some gets hit in the same spot with a 45 ACP 230 gr HST it will do they same thing. Both the 9mm, 45, 40 all have close to the same amount of ft lbs of energy. 45 acp 230gr HST produces 404 ft lbs of energy, 9mm 124gr HST produces 364 ft lbs of energy, and a 40 S&W 180gr HST produces 408 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. The matter of 40 ft lbs of energy is so minute that the 45 or 40 over a 9mm will not make up for a bad shot. A bullet size producing close to the same amount of kinetic energy and the same amount of hyrdostatic shok will not make up for a bad shot.... I am curious to where the requiring of extra hits come from? A caliber will never make up for a bad shot or lack of training. Switching to a 9mm will give the agents the ability to practice for the same dollar and less recoil to be able to get back on target faster.

 

[wildrider666]

My disjointed position. Depending on conditions, I carry .40 or 45APC and a BUG .380. Often in Fl, conditions limit me to the 380 only and I accept those conditions.
Agency balistic lab results and barrier/gel tests say caliber/cartridge X is the best but that is in their perfectly set up little test world. Real world is a bit different, you have single shot kills from .22 and 17 hits from a .40 to stop someone else. So yes shot placement is the number one factor. You control your level of proficiency and situational awareness but you may not control the element of suprise dictating the start of the event, the mental delay of accepting the situation and stress caused impediments thus degrading your response. You have no control over #2: that is the mental state of the BG (including drugs and alcohol), his determination to continue the attack and his will to live (or to die fighting). #3 You control your tools. As had been said before: use a reliable weapon and caliber that you are comfortable and proficient with. Feed it with a cartridge velocity you can handle and a bullet type (I alternate ball and HP in the mag) that functions 100% in the gun.

I compare calibers differently then most people. I look at caliber potential based on BALL AMMO. Ball 45APC will always make a bigger hole and contact more tissue then 9mm. Energy not transfered into tissue is worthless. Temporary expansion in wound channels from higher velicoties are negated by the true elasticity of organs, muscle and tissue. We have seen the slow motion vids of hits in balistic gel but in a human that whole cavity is not totally destroyed. If it were we would have a hell of a lot more one shot stops! It is the size of the bullet/expansion and transfer of energy that creates the real wound channel. That's the money shot.

There has been a lot of buzz about the FBIs latest flip flop to the 9mm because of new 9mm magic bullet performance. I know they also mentioned excessive wear, mag cap and recoil. However, the Marines went to new 1911s in 45 APC and they are killing a lot more people then the FBI through urban barriers and light to very heavy clothing. Standard ammo is Ball but that may change as there is no rule against using other types of ammo (HP, Multiple projectile, fragmenting) and that is being looked at.

Once you find out which is best with ball then you can add the wiz-bang tacticool bullet of the week in that caliber IF that bullet performs better then Ball.

"Requiring extra hits" is probably not the optimum term. You shoot until you have stopped the threat: single BG. You shoot X (your planned preference) into each of multiple BGs then repeat as needed until threats are stopped. The "two in the chest, one in the head" won't work on three BGs when your initial volly is less then nine rounds. Extra hits can be interpreted as more then what was necessary in use of force investigations and Court.

All IMHO, yours may vary greatly.

 

[Kanaloa]

my short version:
1. If you have to go ball ammo - use a 45. If nothing else, because the WWII vets swore by it.
2. If not constrained to ball, use high quality 9mm HP. It's hard to shoot someone while they are moving, so shot placement is not reliable with even good shooters. Some of you may remember the formula for demo calculations - "P" for "Plenty". The more rounds on hand, the better I feel, especially since thugs seem to travel in packs a lot.
3. Thinking outside the box, I prefer this -- http://youtu.be/R_erHq06NcE